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	<title>Comments on: PS doesn&#8217;t matter: hyperbole or understatement?</title>
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	<link>http://www.gentlewisdom.org.uk/?p=213</link>
	<description>from Peter Kirk</description>
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		<title>By: Greek, Hebrew and the Joy of S-x &#124; lingamish</title>
		<link>http://www.gentlewisdom.org.uk/?p=213#comment-305252</link>
		<dc:creator>Greek, Hebrew and the Joy of S-x &#124; lingamish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 19:28:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] The professor&#8217;s tie was wide and striped. This all really happened. I don&#8217;t need hyperbole. Because he loved the textbook so much, the original publisher allowed him to reprint it at will. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The professor&#8217;s tie was wide and striped. This all really happened. I don&#8217;t need hyperbole. Because he loved the textbook so much, the original publisher allowed him to reprint it at will. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: my 1983 : the truth to summer&#8217;s lie</title>
		<link>http://www.gentlewisdom.org.uk/?p=213#comment-1084</link>
		<dc:creator>my 1983 : the truth to summer&#8217;s lie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2007 17:47:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] impersonating an egalitarian woman. Speaker of Truth is really telling lies which is hyperbolically synonymous with understatement. eclexia appears from nowhere masquerading as no one. Lingamish is lingalingaing and almost [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] impersonating an egalitarian woman. Speaker of Truth is really telling lies which is hyperbolically synonymous with understatement. eclexia appears from nowhere masquerading as no one. Lingamish is lingalingaing and almost [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Greek, Hebrew and the Joy of Sex &#171; Lingamish</title>
		<link>http://www.gentlewisdom.org.uk/?p=213#comment-930</link>
		<dc:creator>Greek, Hebrew and the Joy of Sex &#171; Lingamish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jul 2007 06:27:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.qaya.org/blog/?p=213#comment-930</guid>
		<description>[...] The professor&#8217;s tie was wide and striped. This all really happened. I don&#8217;t need hyperbole. Because he loved the textbook so much, the original publisher allowed him to reprint it at will. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The professor&#8217;s tie was wide and striped. This all really happened. I don&#8217;t need hyperbole. Because he loved the textbook so much, the original publisher allowed him to reprint it at will. [...]</p>
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	</item>
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		<title>By: the truth to summer&#8217;s lie &#171; lingalinga</title>
		<link>http://www.gentlewisdom.org.uk/?p=213#comment-901</link>
		<dc:creator>the truth to summer&#8217;s lie &#171; lingalinga</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2007 06:01:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.qaya.org/blog/?p=213#comment-901</guid>
		<description>[...] impersonating an egalitarian woman. Speaker of Truth is really telling lies which is hyperbolically synonymous with understatement. eclexia appears from nowhere masquerading as no one. Lingamish is lingalingaing and almost [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] impersonating an egalitarian woman. Speaker of Truth is really telling lies which is hyperbolically synonymous with understatement. eclexia appears from nowhere masquerading as no one. Lingamish is lingalingaing and almost [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Kirk</title>
		<link>http://www.gentlewisdom.org.uk/?p=213#comment-896</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2007 10:36:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Andrew and John, I think I agree with both of you. One certainly can believe in the wrath of God without believing in PS, but this is probably unusual at least in these times.

But we need to understand properly what is meant by &quot;rejection of a God of anger&quot;. Now of course most parents get angry with their children at times, but they also generally recognise that anger as something wrong, even sinful. A clear distinction needs to be made here which is not always made when God is the agent. A human parent is right and justified (according to popular understanding and, I think, according to the Bible) in strongly warning and reprimanding a child, and in punishing the child in an appropriate way proportionate to the offence (opinions differ on how far this should go). But they are not justified in losing their temper or punishing the child in an immoderate way based on anger rather than proportionality. Parents recognise that to do the latter, uncontrolled rage, is unjust and sinful. And the words &quot;anger&quot; and &quot;wrath&quot; are usually used for this uncontrolled rage. So when Bible teachers talk about the anger or wrath of God, most people think they are saying that God goes into an uncontrolled rage about sin, throwing around thunderbolts (but not very accurately, as in the alleged York Minster incident) and arbitrarily condemning people to eternal punishment for minor transgressions. This is not of course what is meant in the Bible by the wrath of God, and I cannot imagine how this would be consistent with the love of God. But because of such misunderstandings, often not clearly corrected, many people reject the whole concept of the wrath of God. I could almost say that I do. I accept that there is a biblical concept of &lt;i&gt;he orge tou theou&lt;/i&gt;, translated &quot;the wrath of God&quot;, but I really don&#039;t know what it means, if it means more than that God has a negative attitude towards sin. If someone can help me to find out, I would be very grateful!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew and John, I think I agree with both of you. One certainly can believe in the wrath of God without believing in PS, but this is probably unusual at least in these times.</p>
<p>But we need to understand properly what is meant by &#8220;rejection of a God of anger&#8221;. Now of course most parents get angry with their children at times, but they also generally recognise that anger as something wrong, even sinful. A clear distinction needs to be made here which is not always made when God is the agent. A human parent is right and justified (according to popular understanding and, I think, according to the Bible) in strongly warning and reprimanding a child, and in punishing the child in an appropriate way proportionate to the offence (opinions differ on how far this should go). But they are not justified in losing their temper or punishing the child in an immoderate way based on anger rather than proportionality. Parents recognise that to do the latter, uncontrolled rage, is unjust and sinful. And the words &#8220;anger&#8221; and &#8220;wrath&#8221; are usually used for this uncontrolled rage. So when Bible teachers talk about the anger or wrath of God, most people think they are saying that God goes into an uncontrolled rage about sin, throwing around thunderbolts (but not very accurately, as in the alleged York Minster incident) and arbitrarily condemning people to eternal punishment for minor transgressions. This is not of course what is meant in the Bible by the wrath of God, and I cannot imagine how this would be consistent with the love of God. But because of such misunderstandings, often not clearly corrected, many people reject the whole concept of the wrath of God. I could almost say that I do. I accept that there is a biblical concept of <i>he orge tou theou</i>, translated &#8220;the wrath of God&#8221;, but I really don&#8217;t know what it means, if it means more than that God has a negative attitude towards sin. If someone can help me to find out, I would be very grateful!</p>
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		<title>By: John Hobbins</title>
		<link>http://www.gentlewisdom.org.uk/?p=213#comment-894</link>
		<dc:creator>John Hobbins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2007 00:17:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>You might be right, Andrew. But I think PS is poorly explained more often than not. Refusal to accept it depends on that in many cases.

I also think denial of PS correlates pretty highly with rejection of a God of anger. My rule of thumb is this: if one cannot imagine how love implies anger, at least for a time, then one does not really know what love is, and hence one does not know God either.

By God&#039;s grace, of course, things aren&#039;t so bad in practice. I know many people who cannot imagine God except as a warm fuzzy, but who, thank goodness, get angry with their own children when they step out of bounds. By God&#039;s grace, people are contradictory. By God&#039;s grace and mercy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You might be right, Andrew. But I think PS is poorly explained more often than not. Refusal to accept it depends on that in many cases.</p>
<p>I also think denial of PS correlates pretty highly with rejection of a God of anger. My rule of thumb is this: if one cannot imagine how love implies anger, at least for a time, then one does not really know what love is, and hence one does not know God either.</p>
<p>By God&#8217;s grace, of course, things aren&#8217;t so bad in practice. I know many people who cannot imagine God except as a warm fuzzy, but who, thank goodness, get angry with their own children when they step out of bounds. By God&#8217;s grace, people are contradictory. By God&#8217;s grace and mercy.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.gentlewisdom.org.uk/?p=213#comment-893</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jul 2007 23:30:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Peter,
You seem to have read my post in the sense it was intended. My point was intended to be that PS is largely a theoretical doctrine with few practical consequences, and that as a result PS can be denied without it majorly affecting theology.

To read some of the defenders of PS&#039;s views such as Adrian&#039;s or PFOT&#039;s, it seems like they think a denial of PS amounts to a rejection of the fundamental tenants and doctrines of Christianity, and terrible practical consequences.

In reality, PS is not a consequential doctrine and I have met people who didn&#039;t believe PS and yet whose Christianity and life were perfectly in tact. They believed in the realness of God&#039;s wrath against sin, in salvation by grace alone through faith alone, in a loving God who forgives sin, in a Christ who on the cross defeated the devil, and who calls us to follow him as Lord and live transformed lives.

Now you could argue that these people&#039;s theology is not 100% accurate or 100% biblical (but who would truly claim that for themselves?), but it seems off-base to take the view that their theology or lives are sub-Christian or that severe theological or practical consequences have resulted from their complete rejection of PS.

In this way, I am unable to find any negative consequences of a denial of PS. Hence, not only does PS seem to me to be not &quot;central&quot; to Christianity, it can even be completely denied without affecting any other doctrines or practices of our faith.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter,<br />
You seem to have read my post in the sense it was intended. My point was intended to be that PS is largely a theoretical doctrine with few practical consequences, and that as a result PS can be denied without it majorly affecting theology.</p>
<p>To read some of the defenders of PS&#8217;s views such as Adrian&#8217;s or PFOT&#8217;s, it seems like they think a denial of PS amounts to a rejection of the fundamental tenants and doctrines of Christianity, and terrible practical consequences.</p>
<p>In reality, PS is not a consequential doctrine and I have met people who didn&#8217;t believe PS and yet whose Christianity and life were perfectly in tact. They believed in the realness of God&#8217;s wrath against sin, in salvation by grace alone through faith alone, in a loving God who forgives sin, in a Christ who on the cross defeated the devil, and who calls us to follow him as Lord and live transformed lives.</p>
<p>Now you could argue that these people&#8217;s theology is not 100% accurate or 100% biblical (but who would truly claim that for themselves?), but it seems off-base to take the view that their theology or lives are sub-Christian or that severe theological or practical consequences have resulted from their complete rejection of PS.</p>
<p>In this way, I am unable to find any negative consequences of a denial of PS. Hence, not only does PS seem to me to be not &#8220;central&#8221; to Christianity, it can even be completely denied without affecting any other doctrines or practices of our faith.</p>
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