Comments on: Two Anglican priests’ thoughts on charismatic experience http://www.gentlewisdom.org.uk/?p=503 from Peter Kirk Thu, 09 Sep 2010 21:18:05 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Peter Kirk http://www.gentlewisdom.org.uk/?p=503#comment-311814 Peter Kirk Fri, 24 Jul 2009 09:58:36 +0000 http://www.qaya.org/blog/?p=503#comment-311814 Jonathan, since you apparently ignored my previous comment and posted another even longer essay without interacting with the post or previous comments, I am not allowing this new "comment". If you persist in "commenting" in this way I will take steps to block you from commenting here. Jonathan, since you apparently ignored my previous comment and posted another even longer essay without interacting with the post or previous comments, I am not allowing this new “comment”. If you persist in “commenting” in this way I will take steps to block you from commenting here.

]]> By: Peter Kirk http://www.gentlewisdom.org.uk/?p=503#comment-305714 Peter Kirk Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:52:13 +0000 http://www.qaya.org/blog/?p=503#comment-305714 Jonathan, I will allow your essay to stand for once - although I don't agree with it. But the comments on my posts are not the place to post essays like this which do not respond directly to the post or the previous comments. I suggest you start your own blog (free of charge at wordpress.com) and write things like this there. Jonathan, I will allow your essay to stand for once – although I don’t agree with it. But the comments on my posts are not the place to post essays like this which do not respond directly to the post or the previous comments. I suggest you start your own blog (free of charge at wordpress.com) and write things like this there.

]]> By: Jonathan CHM http://www.gentlewisdom.org.uk/?p=503#comment-305488 Jonathan CHM Tue, 14 Jul 2009 01:03:12 +0000 http://www.qaya.org/blog/?p=503#comment-305488 HOLY LAUGHER, HOLY BARK, HOLY DRUNKARD & ETC. Holy Laughter, holy bark, holy drunkard and etc. are not found in the book of Acts during the Pentecost. Some Charismatic churches might use the word, leap, laugh, drunkard and etc. from the Old and New Testaments to support these movements. However, bear in mind that the word, leap, laugh, drunkard and etc. are mentioned instead of the full phrase of holy laughter, holy bark and etc. What if these practices are not from the work of the Holy Spirit, the insisting that these practices are from the work of Holy Spirit has caused one to abuse the name of the Holy Spirit and it would have grieved the Holy Spirit to accept the wrong saying that these are the work of them. However, the Holy Spirit does not do it. One has indeed blaspheme against the Holy Spirit by abusing the name of the Holy Spirit despite he does not do it. The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgivable according to the New Testament DEFINITION OF BLASPHEMY IN HEBREWS/GREEK blas’-fe-mi (blaphemia) in classical Greek and Hebrews means primarily ‘defamation’ or ‘evil-speaking’in general; ‘a word of evil omen’, hence, ‘impious, and irreverent speech against God’. The above is the extract pertaining to the meaning of blasphemy in Greek. Consider carefully about holy bark, holy laugher and etc. For instance, if these are not the work of Holy Spirit, the abusing the name of Holy Spirit by saying that these are the work of Holy Spirit is indeed delivery of irreverent speech against the Holy Spirit. For instance, if these are not the work of the Holy Spirit, the insisting that these should be directed from the work of the Holy Spirit might have abused the name of the Holy Spirit and caused defamation of its name and one might have in turn grieved the Holy Spirit since these might not be the work of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit might be ended up to bear the name for the doer of holy bark, holy laugher and etc. What if it has grieved the Holy Spirit by insisting that these are the work of the Holy Spirit, our ignorance has ultimately caused the ultimate abusing and/or blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. HEALINGS IN CONTEMPORARY CHARISMATIC CHURCHES In miraculous healings among Charismatic churches today, we could easily spot out that many sick will fall down before the healers lay hands on them. However, many sick would remain unhealed after the rally despite they did fall down before the healers, i.e. Pastors that perform miraculous healings. God is definitely powerful and can heal all kinds of sicknesses. However, there is a deficiency in the healings in contemporary Charismatic world. What if the wonders are not the work of the Holy Spirit, the commenting to abuse the name of the Holy Spirit that it is he that does the work might have grieved the Holy Spirit in case if these are not the work of the Holy Spirit and it ends up that one has abused the name of the Holy Spirit and has ultimately blasphemed against the Holy Spirit. ALL BLASPHEMIES WHETHER TOWARDS THE HOLY SPIRIT OR GOD OR JESUS CHRIST ARE TO BE CONSIDERED AS SINS Matthew 12:31-32, “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the BLASPHEMY AGAINST the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speak against a word the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever SPEAK AGAINST the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.” As the phrase, speak against the Holy Spirit, is mentioned in Matthew 12:31-32 with the phrase, blasphemy against the Spirit, it implies that a person blasphemes against the Holy Spirit even if he speaks against the Holy Spirit. The same for abusing the name of the Holy Spirit in which it might have grieved the Holy Spirit to accept the false saying what if the works are not from the Holy Spirit. The word, forgiven, is mentioned in Matthew 12:31-32 with the phrase, every sin & blasphemy, it implies that all blasphemies are to be considered as sin or else why we should need God’s forgiveness for the blasphemies. The same in abusing God’s or Jesus’ name to support their miracles are from God or Jesus respectively and these are the acts of blasphemies to be considered as sins too. THE WELL-KNOWN VERSES IN MATTHEW 7:21-23 Matthew 7:21-23, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practise lawlessness!” What are the elements could be found in these verses above? There are: 1) They believe in Jesus Christ since Matthew 7:22, “(mentions that) Many will say to me..’LORD, LORD”. These people must have believed in Jesus Christ or else how they could call Jesus Christ to be their Lord as mentioned above then. 2) These people could use Jesus’ name to perform miracles since Matthew 7:22, “(mentions that) Many…have..prophesied…in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name?” 3) Will they be accepted by Jesus Christ? Matthew 7:23, “…I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me”. THE PRIDE AMONG CONTEMPORARY CHURCHES FOR THEIR NON-REPENTANCE This is my general discovery upon Charismatic churches: Some Charismatic churches might not repent in order to do away their so-called, gift, in the churches due to they feel thieir reputations are most precious than the truth of the Bible and that causes them to persist in the practice. However, bear in mind that the insisting the so-called, gift, in their churches to be the work of the Holy Spirit might cause them to abuse the name of the Holy Spirit and that causes them ultimately to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit what if the miracles are not from the work the Holy Spirit. The act of insisting to defend their reputation more important than the truth of the Bible has indeed violated the great commandment of the Lord. For Matthew 22:37, “(mentions that) Jesus said to him, ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.” The act of having a high preference for their reputations rather that upholding the truth of the Bible implies that his love towards his own reputation is more significance than his love towards God. For Matthew 22:37 has commanded us to put our love to God first instead of that has to be in replacement of our reputation. HOLY LAUGHER, HOLY BARK, HOLY DRUNKARD & ETC.

Holy Laughter, holy bark, holy drunkard and etc. are not found in the book of Acts during the Pentecost. Some Charismatic churches might use the word, leap, laugh, drunkard and etc. from the Old and New Testaments to support these movements. However, bear in mind that the word, leap, laugh, drunkard and etc. are mentioned instead of the full phrase of holy laughter, holy bark and etc. What if these practices are not from the work of the Holy Spirit, the insisting that these practices are from the work of Holy Spirit has caused one to abuse the name of the Holy Spirit and it would have grieved the Holy Spirit to accept the wrong saying that these are the work of them. However, the Holy Spirit does not do it. One has indeed blaspheme against the Holy Spirit by abusing the name of the Holy Spirit despite he does not do it. The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgivable according to the New Testament

DEFINITION OF BLASPHEMY IN HEBREWS/GREEK

blas’-fe-mi (blaphemia) in classical Greek and Hebrews means primarily ‘defamation’ or ‘evil-speaking’in general; ‘a word of evil omen’, hence, ‘impious, and irreverent speech against God’. The above is the extract pertaining to the meaning of blasphemy in Greek. Consider carefully about holy bark, holy laugher and etc. For instance, if these are not the work of Holy Spirit, the abusing the name of Holy Spirit by saying that these are the work of Holy Spirit is indeed delivery of irreverent speech against the Holy Spirit. For instance, if these are not the work of the Holy Spirit, the insisting that these should be directed from the work of the Holy Spirit might have abused the name of the Holy Spirit and caused defamation of its name and one might have in turn grieved the Holy Spirit since these might not be the work of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit might be ended up to bear the name for the doer of holy bark, holy laugher and etc. What if it has grieved the Holy Spirit by insisting that these are the work of the Holy Spirit, our ignorance has ultimately caused the ultimate abusing and/or blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

HEALINGS IN CONTEMPORARY CHARISMATIC CHURCHES

In miraculous healings among Charismatic churches today, we could easily spot out that many sick will fall down before the healers lay hands on them. However, many sick would remain unhealed after the rally despite they did fall down before the healers, i.e. Pastors that perform miraculous healings. God is definitely powerful and can heal all kinds of sicknesses. However, there is a deficiency in the healings in contemporary Charismatic world. What if the wonders are not the work of the Holy Spirit, the commenting to abuse the name of the Holy Spirit that it is he that does the work might have grieved the Holy Spirit in case if these are not the work of the Holy Spirit and it ends up that one has abused the name of the Holy Spirit and has ultimately blasphemed against the Holy Spirit.

ALL BLASPHEMIES WHETHER TOWARDS THE HOLY SPIRIT OR GOD OR JESUS CHRIST ARE TO BE CONSIDERED AS SINS

Matthew 12:31-32, “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the BLASPHEMY AGAINST the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speak against a word the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever SPEAK AGAINST the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.” As the phrase, speak against the Holy Spirit, is mentioned in Matthew 12:31-32 with the phrase, blasphemy against the Spirit, it implies that a person blasphemes against the Holy Spirit even if he speaks against the Holy Spirit. The same for abusing the name of the Holy Spirit in which it might have grieved the Holy Spirit to accept the false saying what if the works are not from the Holy Spirit. The word, forgiven, is mentioned in Matthew 12:31-32 with the phrase, every sin & blasphemy, it implies that all blasphemies are to be considered as sin or else why we should need God’s forgiveness for the blasphemies. The same in abusing God’s or Jesus’ name to support their miracles are from God or Jesus respectively and these are the acts of blasphemies to be considered as sins too.

THE WELL-KNOWN VERSES IN MATTHEW 7:21-23

Matthew 7:21-23, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practise lawlessness!”
What are the elements could be found in these verses above? There are:
1) They believe in Jesus Christ since Matthew 7:22, “(mentions that) Many will say to me..’LORD, LORD”. These people must have believed in Jesus Christ or else how they could call Jesus Christ to be their Lord as mentioned above then.
2) These people could use Jesus’ name to perform miracles since Matthew 7:22, “(mentions that) Many…have..prophesied…in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name?”
3) Will they be accepted by Jesus Christ? Matthew 7:23, “…I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me”.

THE PRIDE AMONG CONTEMPORARY CHURCHES FOR THEIR NON-REPENTANCE

This is my general discovery upon Charismatic churches: Some Charismatic churches might not repent in order to do away their so-called, gift, in the churches due to they feel thieir reputations are most precious than the truth of the Bible and that causes them to persist in the practice. However, bear in mind that the insisting the so-called, gift, in their churches to be the work of the Holy Spirit might cause them to abuse the name of the Holy Spirit and that causes them ultimately to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit what if the miracles are not from the work the Holy Spirit. The act of insisting to defend their reputation more important than the truth of the Bible has indeed violated the great commandment of the Lord. For Matthew 22:37, “(mentions that) Jesus said to him, ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.” The act of having a high preference for their reputations rather that upholding the truth of the Bible implies that his love towards his own reputation is more significance than his love towards God. For Matthew 22:37 has commanded us to put our love to God first instead of that has to be in replacement of our reputation.

]]> By: Peter Kirk http://www.gentlewisdom.org.uk/?p=503#comment-34541 Peter Kirk Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:34:27 +0000 http://www.qaya.org/blog/?p=503#comment-34541 Ken, what makes you think we do anything differently? We simply encourage people who have a particular ailment to come to those of us praying for the sick, who are not in fact all technically elders but are designated for this job by those with the role of elder. These people pray over the sick people and quite often anoint them with oil. And often, not always, they are healed. Prayer for healing is not restricted to those whose ailments are called out, but is open to anyone who seeks healing. And if they are not at a Sunday service they can call for people to pray for them at home. Ken, what makes you think we do anything differently? We simply encourage people who have a particular ailment to come to those of us praying for the sick, who are not in fact all technically elders but are designated for this job by those with the role of elder. These people pray over the sick people and quite often anoint them with oil. And often, not always, they are healed. Prayer for healing is not restricted to those whose ailments are called out, but is open to anyone who seeks healing. And if they are not at a Sunday service they can call for people to pray for them at home.

]]> By: Ken Watkins http://www.gentlewisdom.org.uk/?p=503#comment-34536 Ken Watkins Tue, 17 Jun 2008 12:51:20 +0000 http://www.qaya.org/blog/?p=503#comment-34536 From your article: These are read out in the service before the final time of worship in song and prayer ministry, to encourage people to come forward for prayer for healing etc. I find this statement above interesting. Here is what God's Holy Word says to do: James 5:14-15 Is any sick among you? Let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: and the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. I had a bad medical problem and did this. God kept his word letter perfect as He always does. I have found that He does not vary from His word one iota. I have found this to be true in every facet of His Holy Word. I Kings chapter 13 is a prime example of what happens to those that change the word of the living God. He says what he means and means what He says. He is a God of love and also of justice. He treasures His word above even His name. In Christ: Golf Pro From your article:
These are read out in the service before the final time of worship in song and prayer ministry, to encourage people to come forward for prayer for healing etc.

I find this statement above interesting. Here is what God’s Holy Word says to do:

James 5:14-15 Is any sick among you? Let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: and the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

I had a bad medical problem and did this. God kept his word letter perfect as He always does. I have found that He does not vary from His word one iota. I have found this to be true in every facet of His Holy Word.

I Kings chapter 13 is a prime example of what happens to those that change the word of the living God. He says what he means and means what He says. He is a God of love and also of justice. He treasures His word above even His name.

In Christ: Golf Pro

]]> By: Kevin Sam http://www.gentlewisdom.org.uk/?p=503#comment-4318 Kevin Sam Fri, 09 May 2008 05:28:16 +0000 http://www.qaya.org/blog/?p=503#comment-4318 <i> charismatic “worship” can be a bit “mindless”. I suppose it is an over-reaction to hymns full of doctrine rather than praise, which is surely what a hymn should be.</i> It is funny how the Spirit works. When our hymns and liturgy get too cerebral, the Spirit comes to mess it up. When we get too touchy-feely, we seek for deeper theology. It’s good to have a balance—books and the Holy Spirit can go together. At least that’s what I strive for. charismatic “worship” can be a bit “mindless”. I suppose it is an over-reaction to hymns full of doctrine rather than praise, which is surely what a hymn should be.
It is funny how the Spirit works. When our hymns and liturgy get too cerebral, the Spirit comes to mess it up. When we get too touchy-feely, we seek for deeper theology. It’s good to have a balance—books and the Holy Spirit can go together. At least that’s what I strive for.

]]> By: Posts about tongues « sunestauromai: living the crucified life http://www.gentlewisdom.org.uk/?p=503#comment-4236 Posts about tongues « sunestauromai: living the crucified life Thu, 08 May 2008 23:22:40 +0000 http://www.qaya.org/blog/?p=503#comment-4236 [...] then leads to a blog discussing being filled with the Spirit not emotionalism, then he notes Two Anglican priests’ thoughts on charismatic experience.  In these post he refers to TIm Chesterton’s testimonies about receiving the Holy Spirit [...] [...] then leads to a blog discussing being filled with the Spirit not emotionalism, then he notes Two Anglican priests’ thoughts on charismatic experience.  In these post he refers to TIm Chesterton’s testimonies about receiving the Holy Spirit [...]

]]> By: Peter Kirk http://www.gentlewisdom.org.uk/?p=503#comment-4081 Peter Kirk Thu, 08 May 2008 15:40:26 +0000 http://www.qaya.org/blog/?p=503#comment-4081 Understood, Tim. Well, I was mostly speaking for myself. Understood, Tim. Well, I was mostly speaking for myself.

]]> By: Tim http://www.gentlewisdom.org.uk/?p=503#comment-4080 Tim Thu, 08 May 2008 15:17:00 +0000 http://www.qaya.org/blog/?p=503#comment-4080 I'm sure you do love communion, Peter. I simply wanted to register my protest against an assumption that an evangelical would have no interest in a book about liturgy or sacraments. I’m sure you do love communion, Peter. I simply wanted to register my protest against an assumption that an evangelical would have no interest in a book about liturgy or sacraments.

]]> By: brian http://www.gentlewisdom.org.uk/?p=503#comment-4065 brian Thu, 08 May 2008 14:17:13 +0000 http://www.qaya.org/blog/?p=503#comment-4065 I think, rightly taught and rightly pastored, charismatic worship doesn't have to be a mindless event in any way but an act of full submission of the heart, mind, and soul to God in worship. I think, rightly taught and rightly pastored, charismatic worship doesn’t have to be a mindless event in any way but an act of full submission of the heart, mind, and soul to God in worship.

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