Todd Bentley’s Apostolic Oversight Team in Action
August 20th, 2008 at 17:37I regret that this blog has gone back to just one subject this week. I have been very busy and have not had time to write except to keep my readers up to date on this story – which does seem to attract readers here and hopefully provide some balance to the very negative perspectives I have found in some places.
Several writers in comments here and on other blogs have been asking questions about the role of the the four “apostles” who prayed for Todd Bentley, on stage at Lakeland, on 23rd June. These four are Bill Johnson, Che Ahn, John Arnott and Peter Wagner. Some comments have implied that these four have acted irresponsibly, or predicted that they will now abandon Todd. Others like Mark B claim to be asking questions when in fact these questions have been answered – if they had bothered to look for the answers. In fact, from the evidence I quote below, it is clear that all four are acting very responsibly, as expected of senior Christian leaders, are standing by their man while not condoning his sin, and are looking towards his restoration to ministry.
I have already quoted Trevor Baker about Bill Johnson’s current position and plan to meet with Todd next week:
Todd has withdrawn from public ministry while he seeks counsel and help from those he is accountable to. A meeting with Bill Johnson is planned when he returns from Australia. This will take place on 30-31 August. Do pray for the Holy Spirit to give clear counsel during this time.
Today I found a link to John Arnott’s response to the current situation. John notes that Todd’s “behavior is wrong before the Lord”, then writes:
Be assured that nothing is being ‘swept under the carpet,’ but we are bringing it out into the light of God’s truth in mercy so that we can interrupt Satan’s plan to use this to discredit Jesus Christ by destroying the lives of Todd, his family and his friends. …
I am aware that the devil wants to tempt some people to say, “I told you so.” Do not allow yourself to become his instrument by using the sword of truth without mercy in this way. Before you cast a stone, remember that you are not without sin yourself. This is how pride can gain a subtle hold in your heart. What you sow now, you will reap in the future.
Had you lived during the reign of King David would you have judged him for his moral failure? While he was in sin, God saw David’s heart and knew that he could be corrected and redeemed. His sin and God’s judgment on it as well as God’s redemption of the situation are recorded in Scripture for everyone to read. …May I enlist your prayers for Todd and Shonnah and their children at this time, that God, the Great Reverser, will miraculously turn this situation around?
Meanwhile Dan Curant has posted (unfortunately without giving his source, but I assume this is genuine) a letter from Doris Wagner, wife of Peter, going into the ins and outs of this situation. This is well worth reading. Here is Peter and Doris’ general perspective on Todd’s ministry:
We felt as though there was a legitimate anointing on Todd’s life. We knew he was an imperfect person but our honest desire was to sort out and save the good. The other charge against us is that we stupidly could not recognize that these miracles were being done under the power of a satanic spirit and that we were totally lacking in discernment. My answer to that is, there probably was some of the flesh at work on some occasions, and people operating with a higher level of discernment may have picked up on some things we could not. I seriously question whether a satanic spirit got away with all of the good. My conclusion is that it was mixed and we wanted to help sort out the good.
It seems that Peter Wagner was reluctant to get involved with Todd, but did so precisely because he saw that Todd needed a higher level of oversight and accountability. Indeed the reasons for this started to come out soon after the 23rd June ceremony. And it is clear that he and the other three are taking very seriously the responsibility they accepted on that day, but within the limitations of busy interrnational ministry schedules. Doris writes:
Todd now has the opportunity to address some character flaws and get them healed and corrected in order to carry the anointing God has given him. …
Be assured that Todd’s overseers, Che, John and Bill along with Peter are hard at work. Please give us some time. Peter is in Singapore and goes on to Indonesia for a few days and will not be back until next week. Che is ministering in Korea. Bill and John have killer schedules all summer long. We are working as best and as fast as we can, but there are constraints that slow us a little. Things like thousands of miles and schedules that cannot be changed, and when it is day here it is night in Asia.
I am very optimistic. I see a door of opportunity swung wide open. I see a wonderful, merciful God reaching out. What many are calling a rotten mess I see as a splendid chance for one of the church’s finest hours. The mess was there festering for a while anyway, now let’s fix it. Is Todd’s situation a strange thing? The breakup of the family is one of the most common societal problems we face today. How many other couples contemplating family breakup could be encouraged to get help if this is a successful rehabilitation?
Todd now has some fathers by his side to help in time of need and to avoid shipwreck if he chooses to accept that help. He now has some authority in his life, and parameters are comforting to kids. He is deeply loved by many who are in a position to help spiritually, emotionally and mentally. He is a place of protection he did not have the luxury of before June 23.
So let’s all continue to pray for Todd, as well as for Shonnah and the children, for repentance, acceptance of help, and over time full restoration. And let’s pray for these four “fathers” as they facilitate this process.
August 20th, 2008 at 5:52 pm
So let’s all continue to pray for Todd, as well as for Shonnah and the children, for repentance, acceptance of help, and over time full restoration. And let’s pray for these four “fathers” as they facilitate this process.
Amen!
August 20th, 2008 at 11:31 pm
Though if you are going to set up an “International Coalition of Apostles” consisting of people that you believe to be “specially gifted”, shouldn’t that include a fair number of people who “operate with a higher level of discernment” ?
August 21st, 2008 at 12:03 am
Chris, I wondered that too, but there are a variety of gifts, and discernment may not always go with apostleship. I suspect that the point is more that Peter and Doris were not focusing on discerning every detail of what was happening at Lakeland, but were relying on others who were perhaps not doing as good a job as they might have.
August 21st, 2008 at 12:15 am
I am asking if they are the most suitable people to be involved at this stage… Arnott for example says he knew nothing about Bentley’s marital difficulties, yet Joyner says it was “public knowledge” and was told in June that the couple where working on reconciliation… Strader says that this was not the first time Todd has strayed and that this is what “frustrated us” (not the plural)… my question therefore is if Arnott is telling the truth and really knew nothing, then he was hardly fulfilling his self appointed role was he? It is clear that the accountability team failed, sure Bentley may have hidden the truth from them, but if Joyner knew and Strader knew – how come they didn’t?
NB. this is saying nothing about how little they did or said when Bentley was consorting with the like of Bob Jones and Patricia King… or why John Kilpatrick (Pastor of Brownsville AoG at the time of the Pensecola Revival) could discern serious theological problems.
Bottom line is this is like asking the people who where looking the other way when the stable door swung open to be responsible for bolting it now the horse is out!
August 21st, 2008 at 12:31 pm
Mark, I think you may have misunderstood John Arnott. It was indeed fairly well known that Todd had marital difficulties several years ago, and Bill Johnson helped him through them. When John writes “I wish I had known that he was struggling in his marriage, but unfortunately, I did not”, I understand him to be referring to the time he visited Lakeland in June; he thought the struggles were in the past and did not know they had been renewed. But it seems that the leader most involved again is Bill Johnson, who seems to know most about this situation.
August 22nd, 2008 at 4:30 am
I feel a bit out of the loop as for charismatic circles – I know just over half the names you mentioned. I think that the theology that Wagner has promoted around apostleship is a bit wacky. And despite theological differences, I do have a lot of respect for many of the folks you mentioned. I don’t think that discernment works quite the way we would want either. If we think that God just likes to call out every sin then I that paints a pretty pathetic picture of God. God, rather, gives us opportunities to deal with our sinfulness. Sometimes that is public, but more often restoration happens in a very private format.
The problem with folks so publically exposed, like Bentley, is that only a public restoration is going to begin restoring trust in his “anointing” (another theology that I feel needs a lot of work). So it is good that his accountability partners are working this through in an open way. That is encouraging.
But this isn’t the only time we’ve had such problems. I am convinced that there are structural issues, specially in how we lead in renewal situations, that need to be addressed. My concerns are with a restorationist theology that plays on the inherent tendency for cult of personality in most evangelical streams.
August 22nd, 2008 at 11:57 am
Thank you, Frank. Whatever we may think of Wagner’s apostles, they are at least an attempt to provide structure and accountability in such matters. I don’t see why the cult of personality is especially linked to restorationist theology – I see plenty of it in for example Reformed and Roman Catholic circles.
August 22nd, 2008 at 1:55 pm
[...] Here’s more information, along with commentary, from Peter Kirk’s Gentle Wisdom blog: Todd Bentley’s Apostolic Oversight Team in Action [...]
August 22nd, 2008 at 4:03 pm
I agree that cult of personality is an evangelical phenomenon, but the restorationist idea of offices really panders to it. In Roman Catholic circles what I’ve seen is the influence of evangelicalism. The papacy is sort of a different problem.
August 24th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
Brad, I am deleting your comment for making gratuitous charges against three respected Christian leaders.
August 24th, 2008 at 11:49 pm
I have been following the “Lakeland revival” and my husband & I are praying for Todd and his family, as well as, all involved. I am sorry for what happened in Lakeland with Todd’s failing but I think what is happening with the “Charismatic” Church leadership is wonderful. They are true fathers and are coming along side of their “son” and his family. I have been a part of this “group” since 1976 and I never really grasped the meaning of the Charismatic Church. I realize now that my husband and I am part of a movement and that there is Apostolic leadership in it and these wondeful people are the Apostles, prophets, teachers etc…I am excited about what is going to happen with this movement as we go on into the future. Again we pray that Todd will be an overcomer.
August 25th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
[...] -Gentile Wisdom [...]
August 30th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
When will someone talk about the thousands who have been deceived and confused by this mess
When will someone talk about the damage this has done to the testimony of Jesus Christ
When will someone talk about repentance
All i hear is pray for Todd to be restored
I pray for his family and for his repentance
and for the many many people this has damaged
after all shepherds should care about the sheep
Peter Jenkins
August 31st, 2008 at 3:27 pm
The cult of personality is evident everywhere – even atheist evolutionists struggle with it as Dawkins grabs the limelight.
September 1st, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Peter J, please note that I DID talk about repentance, explicitly, in the last paragraph of this post, also in this earlier post.
As for people who have been damaged by Todd’s ministry, do you have any evidence that anyone has been? I expect full medical records and personal endorsement from a doctor.
Or are you just imagining this based on your prejudices about Todd’s allegedly false teaching? Yes, there may be a few people who have come away worse off rather than better from an encounter with Todd, but I’m quite sure that their number pales into insignificance compared with those who claim some kind of healing or other benefit from this outpouring.
September 3rd, 2008 at 2:51 pm
Peter Kirk wake up and smell the coffee please
I have had so many emails following my video on you tube thanking me for releasing them from the mess Lakeland had left them in.
How many you ask ?
Well Jesus said one is too many in fact better never to be born than offend even one
But thousands have been deceived damaged and dissalusioned
If they werent then they are in a worse mess than I imagined
Peter J
September 3rd, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Why cant we call these so called prophets what they really are
Its a money making machine they all have to pay dues to peter wagner to belong
Imagine 500 paying just $ 1000 dollars you can work it out
They are not prophets
None of them saw what was happening or what was about to happen
Thank God the majority now see them for what they really are
Peter Jenkins
September 3rd, 2008 at 4:39 pm
Peter J, please be more polite if you want to be allowed to comment here. Seriously, if you expect me to believe that people have been damaged by Lakeland I need some real evidence, not just hearsay. I accept that some people have been disillusioned, but that is good if they previously had false illusions that healing etc was from a man, a celebrity, rather than from God.
September 3rd, 2008 at 8:52 pm
Peter J, let me just tell you one example of fruit from Lakeland. There are many examples tht I could cite, but I will select one. About 3 months ago I was reading testimonies on the internet from Lakeland about children whose eyesight had been touched by God, and shared these with my wife and a friend who was staying with us. Faith grew, and we asked my daugher if she wanted prayer for her eyes. I had gone out to Lakeland in April to receive impartation to move in a greater level of healing anointing. As we prayed for her, she shared that her eyes were suddenly hot. She then said that she could see much better, but the real proof came when she put back her glasses on which would normally correct her vision, only for her to testify that things were now looking blurry through them! It was truly the miracle touch of Jesus Christ, and she is still not wearing glasses today, and seeing fine! Also, going to Lakeland drew me closer to God. Its no accident that there were intimate and powerful times of worship each night, as there still are in Lakeland, and the presence of God has been very tangible.
September 4th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
I am so sad for those who just cannot discern deception
Jesus told us many will be deceived by people who in the name of the Lord perform signs and wonders
As long as there are miracles does that mean we have to accept everything that goes with them ?
Todd Bentley is what he is
and by now most people know what that means
Peter Jenkins
September 5th, 2008 at 12:43 am
Peter Jenkins, perhaps you can give me some good reasons why I should not discern that you, rather than Todd Bentley, are the one deceiving us here. I know a lot about Todd Bentley. I don’t know anything about you – no, actually I do, because from this comment I can tell that this is you. Well, I would have expected a more polite approach from someone with at least 35 years’ pastoral experience. But I wonder if your attitude towards Trevor Baker’s ministry in Dudley is coloured by rivalry with your former church just down the road at Stourbridge, where, by the way, I have contacts.
September 5th, 2008 at 9:26 am
This is the youtube video referred to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpF2kQfAd4E
I wonder if your attitude towards Trevor Baker’s ministry in Dudley is coloured by rivalry with your former church just down the road at Stourbridge
Peter K, I think that is unhelpful. Let’s hear biblical criticisms if they exist, not make speculative statements about the motives of a christian leader. That’s exactly what you’ve criticised those who oppose Todd for.
September 5th, 2008 at 11:00 am
The Renewal Centre in Solihull have certainly been consistent.
Here are two other pastors from there talking about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g73n9izu5r0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVu48lZMV_I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEDhDr61W7Q
September 5th, 2008 at 11:34 am
Blue, thanks for the video links. So far I have only watched the first one.
On what basis does Peter Jenkins claim that Todd Bentley is a false prophet? How can I know whether it is Bentley or Jenkins who is the deceiver? Let’s look at Jenkins’ words from the first video:
This is a bare-faced lie, deliberate deception, and a gross slander against respected Christian leaders like Bill Johnson, John Arnott, Rick Joyner and Trevor Baker who are standing by Todd Bentley in this difficult time. So who here is deceiving us? Could it be the man who says, later in the video, “we promise that by God’s grace we will not mislead you”? Yes, Jesus warned us against deception, and it is coming from Peter Jenkins.
Jenkins finishes:
Good advice indeed, although in its appeal to the feeling of peace it contradicts what Jenkins says earlier about not relying on feelings. Well, I am pleased to say that I have asked God, and continue to ask him, to bear witness with my spirit and to give me peace about Todd Bentley, and “God’s peace bears witness with [my] spirit” to the truth of most of what I have written about him on this blog. But I don’t have the same peace about what Jenkins has written here and said on that video about the Lakeland outpouring, and so I won’t drink that water.
September 5th, 2008 at 11:41 am
and that is a useful analysis, but not linked to the geography of his old church!
September 5th, 2008 at 11:46 am
Interesting that the Renewal Christian Centre pastors kept quiet about Lakeland until after the revelations about Todd Bentley’s marriage. Some of their comments are clearly slanderous, such as (in the third video from the anonymous younger pastor) that Todd Bentley has left his wife and is “having it off with a staff member” which goes well beyond what “he has admitted on his website” – the truth appears to be that his wife left him, for unknown reasons.
September 5th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Interesting that the Renewal Christian Centre pastors kept quiet about Lakeland until after the revelations about Todd Bentley’s marriage
They have been outspoken against it for much long than that Peter. Richard Taylor has been open in his concerns from the beginning, well before the news about the marriage broke.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C92vC3Obn2c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAGhAL1y_RA
September 5th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
Blue, thank you for the correction, that at least one of these leaders spoke out against Todd Bentley before the revelations about his marriage. I am prepared to agree with Richard Taylor that there has been unfortunate hype about Lakeland, but not that the whole thing is of Satanic origin as Taylor seems to claim.
September 10th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
This is a bare-faced lie, deliberate deception, and a gross slander against respected Christian leaders like Bill Johnson, John Arnott, Rick Joyner and Trevor Baker who are standing by Todd Bentley in this difficult time. So who here is deceiving us? Could it be the man who says, later in the video, “we promise that by God’s grace we will not mislead you”? Yes, Jesus warned us against deception, and it is coming from Peter Jenkins.
Lets start with Peter wagner and his 500 so called prophets
Where are they
What about the God channel they seem to have gone quiet over what they claimed was a revival
How can you turn a revival off unless you were the ones who turned it on
And as far as those who endorse him are concerned you mention a handful of names
Good advice indeed, although in its appeal to the feeling of peace it contradicts what Jenkins says earlier about not relying on feelings. Well, I am pleased to say that I have asked God, and continue to ask him, to bear witness with my spirit and to give me peace about Todd Bentley, and “God’s peace bears witness with [my] spirit” to the truth of most of what I have written about him on this blog. But I don’t have the same peace about what Jenkins has written here and said on that video about the Lakeland outpouring, and so I won’t drink that water.
Are you saying that God has given you peace about the things Todd bentley said and did ??
I can hardly believe that
You seem to confuse witness with feelings
Surely if you know God then you recognise His voice
If you recognise His voice then you have peace.
My contention has been and still is by their fruit you know them
I have peace about that
Peter Jenkins
September 10th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
Blue
I honestly have no idea what you are referring to with regards to my former church.
Your comments make no sense so I am disregarding them
Which church do you attend ?
At least you know where I am
Peter J
September 10th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Peter J, you wrote earlier (my emphasis)
Now you seem to be backing down from all to naming one person, Peter Wagner. Now I accept that his role in this is somewhat ambiguous. But that is not true of the four people I named, among others, who continue to support Todd Bentley. As for Wagner’s “500 prophets”, not all of them ever endorsed Todd, and Johnson, Arnott and Joyner continue to endorse him. If you withdraw “All” and replace it with “Some”, I not argue with you.
Yes, Peter, I know God and his voice and I believe that he is telling me that this was and continues to be a genuine move of Himself (even though not everything that happened was perfectly his will), and that Todd is His genuine although flawed servant, who has sinned and needs to repent.
September 10th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Peter J – if you read back in this thread.
I did not comment on your former Church in post 98843.
I was defending you as someone else brought up your church background in post 98656, which I thought was irrelevant, and the italics in my post are a quote of someone else, not my words.
Hope that clarifies.
September 10th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
By the way, Peter J, God TV have not “gone quiet over what they claimed was a revival”. I just received the following from them as part of an e-mail:
So they are not denying that Lakeland was “Revival” or disowning past involvement with Todd. Of course they can’t televise his future meetings because for the moment he isn’t doing any.
September 10th, 2008 at 11:22 pm
God TV have moved away from Todd Bentley you cannot deny that
It was Peter K who brought up the church i pioneered and I am sorry Blue for involving you
But at least I have the confidence to tell you which church I belong to
maybe good if others did the same
Peter J
September 10th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
Peter K
I honestly do not care if yo have contacts with the church I pioneered and pastored for over 20 years
That is totally irrelevant
I would like to know which church you attend as I will probably have contacts too
Peter J
September 10th, 2008 at 11:26 pm
Peter K I just read this
As for people who have been damaged by Todd’s ministry, do you have any evidence that anyone has been? I expect full medical records and personal endorsement from a doctor.
and you are prepared to accept 26 claims of resurrection from the dead by Bentley without any proof
Not even one has been proved
I dont believe you said that
Peter J
September 11th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
“God TV have moved away from Todd Bentley you cannot deny that”
No, I can deny that. They probably pushed him to return to Lakeland quickly in July. They left Lakeland when he did. They are still publicising his past meetings. No doubt they are waiting for him to return. The evidence is quite compatible with an alternative theory that they are standing by him to the death. After all I am sure it is good for their viewing figures.
The name of my home church and a link to its website have always been in my sidebar. You are welcome to contact my pastor through the form you will find there. But I do accept that the point about your former church is irrelevant to the main discussion here and I apologise for it.
As for the supposed raising of the dead (theologically quite different from resurrection as you should realise), I accept that there has been no convincing proof, and that very likely some of the reports are true (but perhaps exaggerated) and others false. And as for those allegedly damaged by Lakeland (I note that you didn’t include the smiley in your quote from me), I have seen even less evidence for this, not even any specific details, but again very likely some reports are true if exaggerated and others are false.
September 11th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
Hi Peter
Are you aware of Earnest Gruen’s blue book that was written in the early 1990′s about the Kansas City Prophets. So many people and churches were hurt by them that he felt he had to make a stand. This is well documented.
http://www.intotruth.org/kcp/kcp-gruen.html
I think nothing has changed. Most of Todd Bentley’s mentors are from the KCP.
I believe that they were ministering through angels even though they say they were not. Not least Dr Greig’s theological defence of why it is ok to minister through angels.
The worse thing though is that this I believe is an attempt to hi-jack the charismatic movement into Latter Rain theology. Very briefly, they believe you can completely rule and reign now through super apostles. They believe they are these and the main line church is apostate.
September 11th, 2008 at 10:15 pm
Blue
I owe you an apology as you were not the one linking my former church to my comments
Peter K has apologised for that so lets forget that now
Peter J
September 12th, 2008 at 12:17 am
Julie, see my latest comment in response to the first of your several new ones – written before I saw the one on this thread. Our basic difference is that you presuppose that all Latter Rain teaching is false and I do not. But is it in fact true that any of today’s charismatic leaders currently “believe you can completely rule and reign now through super apostles” (a teaching I would reject)? Do you have any recent quotes from them (and I don’t mean ones from the early 1990s) to prove this, or is this simply a slur made against them by their enemies?